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Despite what the poultry-industrial complex might have you believe, the meat of Thanksgiving is not turkey but tension: What celebration of shared humanity would be complete without an argument? (The gratitude part is important, too, I’m told, but we’ll get to that later.)
In an effort to stoke festive controversy, I asked Pete Wells, The Times’s chief restaurant critic, Kim Severson, an Atlanta-based Food reporter, Julia Moskin, also a Food reporter, and Sam Sifton, the Food editor, to take sides in some of the holiday’s most entrenched culinary conflicts.
To brine or not to brine?
Sam Sifton: Brining is a very wide tie, at this point in history, a dress out of fashion. I follow the teachings of Kim Severson and use a salt cloak instead, what’s called a dry brine but which is hardly a brine at all. It’s salt and it delivers a taut, golden skin to my bird.
Kim Severson: Thank you!
Pete Wells: Brining is a pain unless you have a second refrigerator for your brine pail. It also ensures that your pan drippings will be too salty to use in gravy. Then again, if you’re making as much gravy as you should, the pan drippings won’t contribute much flavor. I’ve tasted turkeys that were ruined by over brining; the meat gets that springy, spongy texture of ham in a can. I’ve also tasted turkeys that benefited from brining, but on balance I think a dry rub (or dry cure; I refuse to call it a dry brine because it’s nonsensical) is more likely to give you a bird that’s just as good if not better, and is definitely less trouble.
Julia Moskin: Never brined, never will.
[How to Cook a Turkey: A Guide]
What are your thoughts on deep-frying the turkey?
Sam Sifton: I have done it often and endorse the practice, so long as you don’t cook indoors or barefoot.
Kim Severson: I was so against this, for reasons that largely rested on my distaste for groups of men standing around drinking beer in a garage while they watch a pot of oil heat up and the women do all the rest of the work. But then I moved to the South and learned the tender, delicious magic of a bird fried for about 40 minutes in hot oil. I still roast one (largely for gravy and leftovers), but the quality of a deep-fried bird is superior.
Pete Wells: I’m all for it as long as somebody else is doing it.
Julia Moskin: Am a city girl. Pass.
Turkey alternatives (duck, turducken, etc.): A welcome novelty or blasphemy?
Kim Severson: This is bull. It’s essentially performative Thanksgiving cooking.
Sam Sifton: The holiday calls for turkey. Duck may join the party, at a separate table, or stuffed within a turkey. But turkey must abide. Tenderloin is blasphemy.
Pete Wells: If you don’t like turkey, don’t serve it. It’s supposed to be a festive holiday, not a forced march, for God’s sake.
Julia Moskin: Refusing to serve turkey at Thanksgiving is like refusing to put candy canes on the Christmas tree just because you don’t like peppermint. It doesn’t matter if you actually like it. Everyone doing the pageant in the same way is the point of holidays.
What are the most overrated and underrated sides?
Sam Sifton: Sweet potatoes are often overrated. Celery is always underrated.
Kim Severson: No one ever really eats the creamed onions, except the one person who insists on making them every year.
Pete Wells: Pickles are hugely underrated. There should be at least one kind of pickle, and while dill pickled cucumbers might be too everyday for a holiday, pickled beets, carrots, string beans, cabbage or green tomatoes are a good reminder that Thanksgiving is a harvest celebration, among other things. Green beans are overrated unless, see above, they are pickled.
Julia Moskin: Jell-O molds are part of the rich tapestry of Thanksgiving but they are Not Good as a side dish.
Best potato preparation?
Sam Sifton: Mashed. Why are you asking this question?
Kim Severson: Co-sign.
Julia Moskin: Co-co-sign.
Pete Wells: If you are deep-frying your turkey and you are not using the same oil for French fries, there must be something wrong with your head. Also, I don’t know why more people don’t roast potatoes in the pan with the turkey. Roast potatoes are just as good with gravy as mashed.
[How to Make Potatoes: A Guide]
Cranberry sauce: canned or your own recipe?
Sam Sifton: I make my own and so should you. But Alison Roman gave us a beautiful recipe for a tarted-up canned cranberry sauce salad situation this year that I am going to try and I’m guessing I won’t be alone.
Kim Severson: I do two, a fresh one with a navel orange straight off the back of the cranberry bag and a chutney I picked up from a great Mississippi cook. It’s perfect.
Pete Wells: Cranberry jelly from a can is not cranberry sauce, it is just its own thing, cranberry jelly from a can, and you either like it or you don’t. I like it. But for me it’s not Thanksgiving unless I see the small round red bodies of dozens of cranberries that valiantly sacrificed themselves for my table. I cook them with ginger and spices and citrus juice.
Julia Moskin: One of each.
What are your favorite beverages to have on hand?
Sam Sifton: Apple cider, chilly red wine, bourbon and applejack for after.
Kim Severson: More sparkling water than you think you’ll need, with some shrubs and cranberries and cut citrus to dress it up.
Pete Wells: This would be a great time to make a cranberry vinegar shrub. Not that I’m actually going to do that, but this would be a great time for it.
Julia Moskin: I like to serve an extremely weak house cocktail, like a maple-lemon-sherry fizz, right up until dinner is served. Festive but not intoxicating.
Pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie or neither?
Sam Sifton: Pecan pie, thanks.
Kim Severson: I like a pie bar for a big gathering. Set out the whipped cream and four or five pies, as long as you have apple, pumpkin and pecan. It stops a lot of arguments before they start.
Pete Wells: Either/or, but please go easy on the cloves, thanks.
Julia Moskin: Pumpkin, but that crust better not be soggy. I’m going to try Clare de Boer’s new shortcut crust this year.
What is your hottest Thanksgiving take?
Sam Sifton: There is no place for salad at the Thanksgiving table. None. There is no place for appetizers, either. Save oysters. Oysters are like little sips of water before a race.
Kim Severson: Gravy, which springs from great stock, is the most essential component of Thanksgiving. It is the lifeblood of the holiday and covers the many sins committed by turkey, which always hogs the spotlight. I have gone to the mat on this issue with Julia Moskin, who wrongly argues that the side dishes matter more.
Pete Wells: Wall-to-wall Thanksgiving coverage is a form of cultural oppression, thank you. I’m really going to miss this job.
Julia Moskin: Choose a menu in your 20s and stick with it. Otherwise you will drive yourself mad over the years. (Change one thing every year, if you must.)
Giving thanks: a key part of the holiday or a big eye roll?
Sam Sifton: The whole point of the holiday is to give thanks. To not give thanks, to roll your eyes, is to misunderstand why we’ve gathered, why it matters, why the holiday works despite the fact that the world is filled with strife and hate.
Kim Severson: I’m suspicious of anyone who rolls their eyes at an opportunity to be grateful. It’s the best part of the day. Be a good egg and indulge those of us who insist on going around the table and naming something to be thankful for.
Pete Wells: I mean, see above, not everybody is grateful for the things Thanksgiving represents. Once again I really have enjoyed this job and I hope you’ll look for me in whatever my future may hold.
Julia Moskin: If nothing else, the Thanksgiving table can make anyone feel grateful for having enough food. Not everyone does.
Do you have a Thanksgiving take we missed or recipes that rein at your table? Email us at debatable@nytimes.com. Please note your name, age and location in your response, which may be included in the next newsletter.
MORE THANKSGIVING PREP
Alison Roman cooks Thanksgiving in a (very) small kitchen. [The New York Times]
Turkey, mashed potatoes, pumpkin pie and more: Get The Times’s best Thanksgiving recipes. [The New York Times]
How six cooks set striking Thanksgiving tables. [The New York Times]
“Thanksgiving for Native Americans: Four Voices on a Complicated Holiday.” [The New York Times]
“Everything You Learned About Thanksgiving Is Wrong.” [The New York Times]
“Go Ahead. Eat Your Holiday Feelings.” [The New York Times]
WHAT YOU’RE SAYING
Here’s what readers had to say about the last debate: Pete Buttigieg 2020?
Nate from Connecticut: “The first time I heard Pete speak I thought he could be my president. I still think so. Although I believe in the wisdom of age, I also believe in the intelligence and ethics of a person. I’m ready for a younger person to take the stage, as I don’t think the older guys still in politics are quite gettin’ it.”
Carl: “I am a conservative Republican from California. I wrote in Paul Ryan here because it did not matter and I could not stand Clinton or Trump. I will consider the mayor if it looks like Trump will lose. It’s better to have a real smart liberal that can learn on the job, than the other nuts running.”
Kate from Washington: “I suspect that Mayor Pete’s recent surge in Iowa polling has much to do with advertising and the size of his ground operation — which arise from his ability to extract big bucks from the ‘donor class,’ especially those Wall St. and Silicon Valley types who fear both regulation and taxes. In my opinion it will be sad if the Democratic Party succumbs once again to moneyed influences — and I think it will spell electoral defeat. Buttigieg’s vague promises to ‘bring people together’ have no substance and, for all his rhetorical skill, he likely will be rolled by Trump and the Republicans.”
